Do you believe in GOD?

[hackerz14]

So if God is omnipotent (infinite capabilities; can do everything) then he is able to stop every murder from happening, but yet he doesn't; hence he is bad. But the Qur'an (as does the Bible), I believe, claims that this 'God' is good. So there is a logical fallacy here, so the God who is spoken of does not exist.

you can only know GOD by your heart and not by your logical mind alone, because everything about your preconceive ideas of good and bad will be a term you use to designate something with which you agree or not. The only way to move forward on this is to ask yourself, "What would happen if everything I thought was 'wrong' was actually 'right'?"

[shought]

So if God is omnipotent (infinite capabilities; can do everything) then he is able to stop every murder from happening, but yet he doesn't; hence he is bad. But the Qur'an (as does the Bible), I believe, claims that this 'God' is good. So there is a logical fallacy here, so the God who is spoken of does not exist.

you can only know GOD by your heart and not by your logical mind alone, because everything about your preconceive ideas of good and bad will be a term you use to designate something with which you agree or not. The only way to move forward on this is to ask yourself, "What would happen if everything I thought was 'wrong' was actually 'right'?"

Your heart, per definition, cannot know. I know you are pointing at something like 'feeling', but feelings are still subject to rationality (as in feelings are determined, not 'random' or disconnected from the physical).

What would happen if everything I thought was 'wrong' was actually right? That'd be a pity... But I'm fairly sure that my physical self (the person I am now) would not mind much, as I would just be dead. There might be some spirit representing me in your 'other world' who would be rather pissed off at me, but I'm fairly sure I wouldn't mind :) (Thanks for your concern though (honestly).)

[madeinheaven]

I'm a member on a car forum

Policy there are no religion and politics are permitted to discuss in that forum.

Always someone that take offence.

I totally agree +1

[shought]

I'm a member on a car forum

Policy there are no religion and politics are permitted to discuss in that forum.

Always someone that take offence.

I totally agree +1

I myself hope that some day us humans will be able to have a civilized discussion about topics like these... Who knows, maybe I'm just crazy.

[Nima]

@ Shought:

1. So you don't know what are the holy books. Bibles or at least our Qur'an is a complete guidance, it has all the subjects that a human need to grow and reach the high level in spiritual life and mass life, with these holy books you can live better, it is only the program and notes that help you live better, it does not say it's good or it's bad, but it must say that something is good; to we, humans, understand the meaning of it and find out what it says.

Qur'an does not talk about God very much, as I said it has only talked about real life and the end of bad people and good people to let us know our end, to let us choose being evil or being good.

2. About the worlds, we have more than 1 world and If I don't get wrong we have 4 worlds that in each of them some creature are living, but the position of worlds are like this (Included parallel worlds theory).

So, the God is in the last square (2) and other worlds are in it's control (Because he is omnipotent) so he has access to other worlds, like angles for example in second world (1), they can go lower even in our world but they can not reach higher levels (In Qur'an we have such this) the things that in lower worlds can not reach higher levels but can go lower, so the God is at the highest level and have an access to all worlds, energy and mass are only in the Current level and they are not in higher levels, but this is only schematic, the real one is much more complex than you can think.

3. Yes, the time is concept (but not "tense") but in anyway the world started from 1 point, many many years in past but from 1 point and we don't know what is that because our knowledge is limited, (Like many matematics issues that still have not any solution like 1/0).

4. Again, the god is not in current world but can see the inside of it from the another world (Again because he has super-human powers) that there is no mass and energy there, for example you can see inside of a glassy box, you are not in there but you can see it, there is mass and energy in that and can't leave that box but you are out of it. the example of God and us is like this.

5. Universe and anything inside this world has boundaries but we can not measure that, the universe is limited in all directions but we can not measure the end of it, again because our knowledge is limited (Like in mathematics, lim (x->0) 1/X ).

And there is nothing over the limit and you want to step, over that is another world that you can not go through out of this world because you have some limitation and prevent you from going more.

6. You did not understand, he has infinite capacities and he can stop bullets to go and murder but he does not do, Why? Because he wants to know (He knows but he wants the process goes that you yourself see and believe that, so you can not refuse the process in justice day), If you murder a person If you were on your own. The reason is.

In our life we also see that some people rescued from being murdered magically (But with the some facilities), it's the God's job, He himself wont do anything and use the creatures to do some jobs like this.

Example: Imagine you had a friend in school and after some year your relation between you and him became very bad and you might kill each other if you see each other, but after 30 years for example, your friend went to another country and another continent, you are still thirsty for his blood :D, one day in a street a person take you and wants to kill you suddenly you see that old friend come and rescue you.

My belief from this happen is that God helped me, not that friend, he was only a facility, God knows 1 month ago that today this will happen to me and he did some things to that friend that caused he came to my country for any reason and change his mind about me and on that time see me in street and come and help me.

[HX1]

What would happen if everything I thought was 'wrong' was actually right? That'd be a pity... But I'm fairly sure that my physical self (the person I am now) would not mind much, as I would just be dead. There might be some spirit representing me in your 'other world' who would be rather pissed off at me, but I'm fairly sure I wouldn't mind :) (Thanks for your concern though (honestly).)

Okay so I am not going to get involved here... but I think the idea which hackerz14 is pointing to would be that in order for us to ever arrive at truths.. even for us to gather conclusions and for us to represent a process in which we gather intelligence and knowledge or 'perceptual truths'.. It is necessary to see things from another perspective.. in a way to analyze data in such a way that.. We take the pieces and see if they fit together another way...

Many people take information and put it together to make a complete thought by using that which they have observed themselves.. other by searching through thousands of year of literature.. Some arrive at 'perceptual truths' which have the spaces filled in.. others rely on things which are simply the next thing.. explained by divinity and other thoughts which seem to arise when we question... Others of us look for patterns in events as the are left to mature on their own.. The process n which these question arise.. our knowledge and skill we have obtained in problem solving.. as well as events within those lives also determine the outcome of many of these things... and can actually effect our perceptual knowledge itself.. Sometimes with our without it all being explained.. having higher level education or from spending years in the investigative process which in turn leads us to the knowledge we have achieved at that place n time.. where ever it my be..

This process also takes different forks in the way that the conclusions are arrived at... one of which would be to test the theory or even look at it from a psychologically different perspective.. dark versus light, black versus white... ( Though this is not all encompassing and only two examples )

IF we never question ourselves.. which n many cases is the only venue of even the presentation of the idea... we may never arrive at better solutions, or solve problems in that knowledge regardless of what it may be or concern... Questioning ourselves can also be something that is untrusted because of the effecting factors which may lead us to question these things.. For some opening these doors can be painful, traumatic.. revealing.. it can sometimes lead to places which may not yet know.. There is no form letter.. for debate.. speculation, questions.. ideas.. anything at all can fall short of communicating and including all points to be considered.. yet within those points itself can lay defining aspects which state one thing or the other and even be the proverbial box in which we think.. ( Even in the presenttion or argument of the thing itself. or dispute one way or the other ) Outside of that box anything can occur... Someone can move your 'Cheese' within the maze.. For the most part the only one we trust in is ourselves because inside we re the only one we know.. the only think which we supposedly have to rely on without deception nor to be full of the things we do not trust believe..

Question everything... some people assume yet within this idea of freeing our minds and bodies.. for many to simply obtain a better standard of metaphysical existence.. without roadblocks or issues.. we can become yet another prisoner.. by becoming to focused upon one thing within our lives...

It is my belief that we cannot address any situation as a form letter.. or assume without these pieces.. anything... We cannot say that saving ones life is the right thing to do.. we cannot judge rather saving ones life is the right thing to do.. We can make a statement about how it makes us feel and respond like a PDA as to what we are taught and told to believe... We can continue to the same.. yet it may not be the best robotic response and these events may be outside our understanding.. or knowledge to even make those statements, assumptions, start quoting facts like a Bing commercial.. or w/e... Cause and effect relationships being the idea here... even down to the reaction of ourselves...

Laws were created to define us.. tell us what not to do.. tell us what to do.. what is wrong through the limited reasoning and understanding of man.. We can see what works and what doesn't.. Definition being the key word... You want an ancient example... look at it for yourself... The more knowledge we obtain about anything.. in many cases the more we question.. the more we question the more answers and new ideas we can find.. once perceptually, it can even be seen...

Simple idea really..

[LeetPirate]

Uni-Verse is "one word", people believe this one word of ultimate truth to be God. To understand the concept of free will means you must also understand the concept of infinite power. To believe that God should stop every person from doing wrong is to disbelieve in his infinite power because you cannot understand the idea of free will. Why would God stop everyone from doing wrong things? It goes against the promise of free will. If you see something wrong then you should stop it because you have free will and a capable body to do it, and that is your purpose as a human being, either you strive to help others and do good or you do nothing and complain all day, expecting God to stop people from doing wrong is naive and misguided at best, its unthinkable. Some people just cannot understand how free will can exist and there is nothing they can do about it; if you can't understand it you just can't. It's like whistling, some people just can't do it no matter how hard they try.

Yes to understand that God has infinite power is very difficult and many people cannot do it because they start with the wrong basis thinking that infinite power is somehow bound by human limitations and human thought limitations. You have to begin with the understanding that infinite is unbound by anything other wise you will never understand basic natural phenomenon like how sea water could never contaminate fresh water rivers despite its overwhelming power over the tiny rivers.

Something for nothing is an invalid concept, never happens, never will. If you believe in God you must make an effort in your religion as well as your other tasks else nothing will ever happen. The funny thing is that people blame God when science and evolution runs its course, God is not against science, everything religious can be scientifically explained, some of it we probably do not yet have the capability to understand, human evolution has a long way to go. People blame God when natural disasters strike, when cancer kills their mom, when their son is killed by a gang, when sickness befalls them; everything is part of human evolution and time will run its natural course. Every natural disaster has been explained by science, so why blame God when it happens? We know it will happen and we know why it happens. Give a bad person a gun and expect him to not kill people? Naive. You cannot stop free will and you cannot expect God to revoke his promise of free will.

The other single reason why people refuse the idea of God is because of human emotion called pride; to accept God in your life means to submit yourself as subordinate to a higher power, some people just can't do that. Again all this is part of free will and you cannot stop the growth of a man's ego. Doing good takes effort and is hard, doing wrong takes little effort and is very easy. The actions of worship themselves are not as relevant as the idea they represent, its all about investing effort. You have to choose your own path in life, don't expect God to do it for you, humans always like to complain about everything and could never be pleased. If we didn't have free will to do as we please then the same number of people in the world would be talking the same level of nonsense. You have no idea how powerful the human ego is and what it makes people do.

The many religions that stem from middle eastern regions do not contradict each other as many people think. Each of them were for a period of time and were appropriate for that time period, and each of them came with the basis of a single God, always reinforcing the Universe concept. Through time many of the facts have been distorted and many people changed what they wanted to suit their needs which is why there are so many different sections of Christianity, Muslims, Hindus, etc. and none of the different sections could agree with each other. Now there are even various sectors of atheists who disagree with each other. This is human nature, however the true purpose of human existence is to seek out the Universal truth without your ego and pride getting in the way, it's a difficult task and many will fail and get distracted. The space exploration endeavours are just people seeking out the truth in their own way.

On the point of having to make effort for everything and that doing good is more difficult than going wrong, you will find that most atheists today are simply atheists because they are too lazy to go through their religious obligations. Laziness is another downfall of humans. With all our differences in place we would never evolve into a single planetary race and progress to where we could be, regardless of religion.

[shought]

Now I have three walls of text, all aimed at different parts of my arguments, against me :P Darn, I should've understood from the beginning this was going to take ages...

-----

@Nima

In this discussion I don't care what these books 'prescribe' for humans. I do however think these books are extremely valuable for teaching ethics.

What I care about (in the context of this topic) is the existence of a God (as described in these books) and I posit that the God, as described in these books, cannot exist for the simple fact that he cannot be both good and omnipotent and at the same time allow people to get harmed (for allowing people to get harmed by others, where you have the power to stop them is bad).

I'm sorry about this, but: religious people always tend to confuse discussions with a lot of unrelated stuff (and sure you will argue that this stuff is not unrelated but that this stuff is 'exactly that which is important', but in a logical discussion of my previous statement everything you said in your last post is irrelevant :(). You are just skipping my arguments and continue to tell your own story...

I will address your points here:

1. 'The book teaches how to be good.' --> I do not see how this relates to the discussion. (As we're discussing the existence of a God, not whether the book is good or not.)

2. 'God is omnipotent' --> I already explained: in a physical world there is a closed chain of events; nothing can be added or subtracted from the world and nothing non-physical can interact with the physical. (Hence nothing outside our world can affect our world, so God is not omnipotent.)

3. 'Time has to start from 1 point.' --> why? Time (and space) is a concept invented by humans to cope with the world around them; to 'understand a physical chain of events'. This does not mean that without humans there would be no time, it merely means there is no one label 'it' as such (well, animals probably have a concept of time of space as well, but I can't judge that, for all I know they are just 'machines'). I see no need for time (or space) to 'start' at one point as it is a framework to understand events.

4. 'Glassy box argument' --> A glassy box would have boundaries, the universe does not (it does according to you, but I guess that's where we'll have to agree to disagree).

5. 'Universe does have boundaries' --> I disagree. There might be a 'planet farthest away from the middle of the universe', but outside of that planet there would still be space; no boundary. (Agree to disagree ;))

6. 'He himself won't do anything but use the creatures to do so' --> Are you suggesting that God somehow controls humans directly? How would this work with 'free will'? Again: a non-physical entity like 'God' cannot interact with the physical world. You could however state that it is 'through the book' that 'he' influences the humans to do good for others, but then you would not need 'God', all you needed would be the book. This is I think where I stand on 'these books'; they are great ethical guides but are certainly not supposed to be 'true'.

-----

@heath (HX1)

I question myself about a lot of things, but all the questions I ask (except for ethical questions) are answered by science. Ethical questions do not have right answers if you ask me, you should just try to do what's best, but no one is 'the judge'.

-----

@Leet

'...everything religious can be scientifically explained...' --> I completely disagree. The story of Adam and Eve cannot be scientifically explained, according to that story we would all be retards (and in a sense we are :P) because we would all be descendants of Adam and Eve (which would seriously impair our gene pool). If I took the time to read all those holy books I'm fairly sure I could dig up another thousand and one examples of scientifically impossible religion.

Now you would probably argue that we should not take those books to the letter, but if we shouldn't take those books and those stories to the letter then why in the world should we believe in a God? That story about this God should also not be taken by the letter and we should accept that he's just like an imaginary pall, trying to make sure you lead a good life (which would not be a bad thing at all :)).

'The other single reason...' --> in this section you are generalizing 'being religious' to 'being good'. It takes effort to be good, it takes effort to be religious, but that doesn't mean that religious people are good.

Atheists are too lazy to be religious? :P That's a fun way of putting it ;) (I'm agnostic for the record.)

-----

Definition of 'free will': the ability to make a different choice in exactly the same situation.

Definition of 'situation': the same physical state of the entire world.

Another 'for the record' (to make this even more challenging :D): I do not believe in free will. We live in a deterministic universe and our life's have been determined forever. This does however not mean (as most people would think) that our beliefs cannot influence our decisions. Because if I believe that the universe is deterministic and this would cause me to think 'I can't help what I am doing' then this might change my behavior (I would just kill someone and then try to justify it by saying 'it was determined').

So following the two definitions above and what I just said:

Do you think that you would have been able not to reply to one of my posts? Sure you could argue 'if I wanted to I would not have', but that would not be the exact same situation.

If you have another definition of free will or think you could have chosen not to reply to my post, let me know :D

[Ambrocious]

I believe in the God of Issac, Abraham and Jacob. The Hebrew God, YHWH or Jehovah.

[jalaffa]

I believe in free will. We are not puppets of a God. That would not make sense. Also Christianity or other religions have not monopoly on the good deeds. Else I'm unsure.

[Atasas]

...

ouch!

I say- if there is a God- I'd know...

but then, after all, I wish there is one (beside me) :smartass:

[LeetPirate]

Dude it's either something you get or something you don't. You are trying to bind something infinite to your finite rules. " in a physical world there is a closed chain of events; nothing can be added or subtracted from the world and nothing non-physical can interact with the physical." is clearly proof of this and your statement holds no basis and is invalid because infinite cannot be bound to anything you want to apply to it. I don't expect you to understand because you clearly do not, and probably never will, as long as you keep trying to apply invalid parameters. You are in a confusing loop of misunderstanding predestined path with free will which is why you could never understand it. That's just the way it is.

Again you fail to see that Adam and Eve theory just means that as time passed we all evolved into different races based on our situation, it's definitely more believable than thinking we came from 1 magical cell in the ocean, human beings reproduce through sexual reproduction, not through amoeba reproduction and it isn't asexual either so believing we came from some fish cell is believing in magic. That is off topic but it certainly supports scientific evolution more so than Darwin's theory.

[shought]

Agree to disagree :)

You state that because I apply the laws of physics I cannot understand it, I state that you don't understand that the laws of physics are all-encompassing.

Potatoes, potatoes (hey, that doesn't work when typing! :P).

[shajt]

@shought,

As a non-believer you will burn in hell forever, you understand that, don't you ? :P

:fear:

[Norfdas]

@shought,

As a non-believer you will burn in hell forever, you understand that, don't you ? :P

:fear:

Want to know who had that experience first and who was told first about it.

Any beliver with inside information?

Or not?

Any religion that threatens people to belive in one or another way is obvious something not to take for truth.

[shajt]

@shought,

As a non-believer you will burn in hell forever, you understand that, don't you ? :P

:fear:

Want to know who had that experience first and who was told first about it.

Any beliver with inside information?

Or not?

Any religion that threatens people to belive in one or another way is obvious something not to take for truth.

Exactly, that was a joke towards shought but it seems he's too serious about this and he's taken this whole thing to another level....

Anyhow , I asked several times but believers can't find answer to that.

It's very simple , how can God give a man free will and then say to him : 'If you don't believe in me you will burn in hell forever' ??

How's that free will ?

I don't understand it and I must be dumb or something.

It's so stupid that is bizzare how people can believe in that crap (I'm sorry but it's crap, nothing personal).

As I said before, it's a threat, and if God really exists and all that crap in the bible is true, then I say to him 'Show yourself or go fck yourself mtherfcker !' ...

[shought]

@shajt

I knew it was a joke, but jokes don't help when talking to religious people ;)

It was funny, in my eyes, though :)

[shajt]

@shajt

I knew it was a joke, but jokes don't help when talking to religious people ;)

It was funny, in my eyes, though :)

Okay, good to know my friend, for a minute I was worried :)

I know very well that it's very hard to talk with religious people (let's call them fanatics, why not, they really are fanatics).

In their mind there is God , period.

When you ask them some questions about it and they can't find a logical answer then it's very simple for them to fire some BS ... 'God does miracles' , 'He moves in mysterious ways' , 'He has a plan' etc.

[shought]

@shajt

I knew it was a joke, but jokes don't help when talking to religious people ;)

It was funny, in my eyes, though :)

Okay, good to know my friend, for a minute I was worried :)

I know very well that it's very hard to talk with religious people (let's call them fanatics, why not, they really are fanatics).

In their mind there is God , period.

When you ask them some questions about it and they can't find a logical answer then it's very simple for them to fire some BS ... 'God does miracles' , 'He moves in mysterious ways' , 'He has a plan' etc.

It's equally hard to talk to convinced atheists though ;)

[Marik]

well something made us....I guess we'll find out when we die.

As for actually believing....I'll believe it when I see it...for now I will just choose "yes" because I can :troll:

[Sl@pSh0ck™]

This is the only thread that I read from post # 1 to the end ... pretty interesting views you guys have. I just hope this thread will not turn into a Trolling game :ph34r:

[LeetPirate]

Want to know who had that experience first and who was told first about it.

Any beliver with inside information?

Or not?

Any religion that threatens people to belive in one or another way is obvious something not to take for truth.

Is it really that illogical to you? Religious people believe in accountability for their actions, so the guy down the street who murders somebody (because he has free will and can do it) could run from the laws that bind a country but a religious person believes that the guilty will be held accountable for their actions and such a murderer will be held accountable for his actions. I guess you don't believe in accountability, fairness or justice. They are the same concept here except that religious people seek their fairness and justice on a different level.

Also, telling someone that if they don't believe in a religion they will be condemned to hell is not a threat, if that were true then I threaten you by saying if you don't eat healthy you will get fat. Makes sense? Of course not, because it isn't a threat, it's just a conditional statement and because you have freedom of choice you can choose to eat kfc and choose to not follow a religion.

It's amazing the things people are incapable of understanding when our history as human beings hold many answers. I'll tell you what we like to do, condemn every possibility of belief in something more advanced than what we have. If you told someone 500 years ago you could fit their entire life story on a tiny silicon chip they would say you're crazy. There are people today who still disbelieve in the possibility of quantum computing and sustainable cold fusion, luckily not everyone is quick to give up on seemingly impossible things thus we have managed to reach this far. But you see the problem is people refuse to believe that God could be using infinitely more advanced technology than us because the pride and ego of humans prevents us from thinking that anything could reach beyond our present capability. It's that same kind of fat ego that makes shajt believe he could demand an audience with God, trust me even people from the past times who witnessed true miracles by moses and jesus etc still refused to believe, so why demand proof if you have a closed mind and have no intention of seeking the truth? USA and Russia have that going on for decades, while USA would waste millions to invent a pen that could write in space, the Russians would just use a wooden pencil. And it's all because of pride and ego that some Americans still think today they they won the war in Vietnam and that they could wipe out Russia, lol. Russia only needs to use 10% of their nuclear payload to obliterate USA which is why when Putin disrespects USA they have to take it and like it because they can't do shit about it.

Wise man from India said:

It is said that you have about 60,000 thoughts per day, but did you know that 95% are the same thoughts as you had yesterday?

When these same thoughts are negative you have fallen into bad mental habits. Rather than focusing on all the good in your life and thinking of ways to make things even better; you become a captive of your past.

[ck_kent]

I was hesitant to read the responses in this topic when I first saw it because I was sure that this poll (should only be a poll) would turn into a debate proving/disproving the existence of God. After reading all the responses, surely I was right. :)

Yes, I still believe in God. That's my vote. But, I'm not saying I'm a religious man. There are also times that I question the existence of God because of what's happening around. My take on this science disproving the existence of God is, for me, would it be possible that God, being Almighty that he is, is not bound to all the rules/laws of physics and the universe that humans and the universe are bound to? Think of it like this, I presume you all know the movie "The Matrix" right? Inside that matrix, people would think that it's utterly impossible to see someone flying through the air or dodge bullets or even stop them. Why? Because the laws of physics inside the matrix don't allow them to and there are no logical explanation around it. Now, Neo, Morpheus, Trinity and the others are able to do that because they're outside the matrix. The laws of physics inside the matrix doesn't affect them. I think of God as being exactly that, not bound to all the rules and laws that humans know. Maybe we can't prove that God is above all these laws but we don't need to. It's the thing called "faith" that makes us know that there is a God. But, I also doubt that science can prove that the God that we believe in, is bound to all these laws. All that science has proved are bound to these laws (that's why I think it's called science :lol: )

I also remembered an episode of "Friends" back then. Here's an excerpt from that episode:

ROSS: Ok, Phoebe, this is it. In this briefcase I carry actual scientific facts. A briefcase of facts, if you will. Some of these fossils are over 200 million years old.

PHOEBE: Ok, look, before you even start, I'm not denying evolution, ok, I'm just saying that it's one of the possibilities.

ROSS: It's the only possibility, Phoebe.

PHOEBE: Ok, Ross, could you just open your mind like this much, ok? Wasn't there a time when the brightest minds in the world believed that the world was flat? And, up until like what, 50 years ago, you all thought the atom was the smallest thing, until you split it open, and this like, whole mess of crap came out. Now, are you telling me that you are so unbelievably arrogant that you can't admit that there's a teeny tiny possibility that you could be wrong about this?

I do hope that friendly relationships here are not affected with this kind of a sensitive topic.

[Nima]

@Nima

In this discussion I don't care what these books 'prescribe' for humans. I do however think these books are extremely valuable for teaching ethics.

What I care about (in the context of this topic) is the existence of a God (as described in these books) and I posit that the God, as described in these books, cannot exist for the simple fact that he cannot be both good and omnipotent and at the same time allow people to get harmed (for allowing people to get harmed by others, where you have the power to stop them is bad).

I'm sorry about this, but: religious people always tend to confuse discussions with a lot of unrelated stuff (and sure you will argue that this stuff is not unrelated but that this stuff is 'exactly that which is important', but in a logical discussion of my previous statement everything you said in your last post is irrelevant :(). You are just skipping my arguments and continue to tell your own story...

I will address your points here:

1. 'The book teaches how to be good.' --> I do not see how this relates to the discussion. (As we're discussing the existence of a God, not whether the book is good or not.)

2. 'God is omnipotent' --> I already explained: in a physical world there is a closed chain of events; nothing can be added or subtracted from the world and nothing non-physical can interact with the physical. (Hence nothing outside our world can affect our world, so God is not omnipotent.)

3. 'Time has to start from 1 point.' --> why? Time (and space) is a concept invented by humans to cope with the world around them; to 'understand a physical chain of events'. This does not mean that without humans there would be no time, it merely means there is no one label 'it' as such (well, animals probably have a concept of time of space as well, but I can't judge that, for all I know they are just 'machines'). I see no need for time (or space) to 'start' at one point as it is a framework to understand events.

4. 'Glassy box argument' --> A glassy box would have boundaries, the universe does not (it does according to you, but I guess that's where we'll have to agree to disagree).

5. 'Universe does have boundaries' --> I disagree. There might be a 'planet farthest away from the middle of the universe', but outside of that planet there would still be space; no boundary. (Agree to disagree ;))

6. 'He himself won't do anything but use the creatures to do so' --> Are you suggesting that God somehow controls humans directly? How would this work with 'free will'? Again: a non-physical entity like 'God' cannot interact with the physical world. You could however state that it is 'through the book' that 'he' influences the humans to do good for others, but then you would not need 'God', all you needed would be the book. This is I think where I stand on 'these books'; they are great ethical guides but are certainly not supposed to be 'true'.

Hey shought, you simply does not understand what I say, sorry, I can not discuss these subjects with you, I am not professional in this field and the bigger problem is I can not give all my purpose and aim in English language.

Anyway, I suggest to keep our beliefs for ourselves and try not to force to another one to accept.

Sorry, But you could not convince me that there is no God.

Excuse me if anything I told caused you be upset or if anything insulted you ;).

These topics are extremely sensitive and I do not want our relationship be affected by this.

Thanks,

Nima

[Pirri]

YES, I do.

I believe in Jehovah (the name of God... also is accepted Javeh) with all my heart, all my life and all my forces.

Best regards...

PS: Please, read my signature at the bottom of this post. For more info please... PM because I'm open to your requests.